Forming Cases for the 6.5x53mmR Dutch (or Romanian) Mannlicher cartridge, used in the M1895 Dutch rifle

I read up on the process and started. I found most of the pitfalls. Please read the entire article prior to beginning the process. I wrote this more or less as a log of my attempts. It worked well on the first try, more or less. I did find some easier or less damaging techniques and added them later.

All my sources and information indicates the Dutch cartridge is the same shape, size and pressure specifications as the 6.5×54 (rimless) Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge, save the rim. Since no one commonly makes dies for the Dutch cartridge (actually, RCBS does, but they run over $100 a set; more for ‘forming’ dies), I bought a set of 6.5x54MS dies (made by Lee and cost less).

Start with .303 British cases, preferably new and unfired. This actually simplifies the process, since no one I could find makes a dedicated 6.5x53mmR shell head holder. To simplify this essay, I’m going to refer to the round as “Dutch”, as that is the type of rifle I have.

.303 British case, unaltered.  .303 British case, unaltered.

.303 Brit cases are normally 54 to 56 millimeters (mm) long (depending if at maximum length or recently trimmed). Dutch cases are 53.5 mm when longest – according to my readings of the few schematics I found. Trimmed, Dutch cases are 52 mm. Therefore, the .303 cases need to be trimmed. The Dutch cases headspace on the rim, so the actual length is not crucial. However, too long a case will cause the shoulder to crush and rumple. Not desired. Too short a neck will not hold the bullet properly and securely. But even a full millimeter probably won’t stop the show. Also, one must turn the neck to allow the seated bullet to enter the neck portion of the chamber AND allow for some expansion so the case can release the bullet when fired. These actions will be discussed later.

I note a scratch on the shoulder of some of my resized cases. Debris in one of the sizing dies I used. It doesn’t seem more than a surface effect, but it does annoy me. I have located the problem. It doesn’t really mean much and the ‘defect’ is removed later (shooting the cases), but do inspect brass regularly during the forming procedure.

Step one.  Size .303 British case in .308 Winchester sizing die, without decapper or expander. Step One: Size .303 British case in .308 Winchester sizing die, without decapper or expander

1. I found the best way to start was by removing the decapper/neck expander from, then sizing the original case in a .308 Winchester (Lee brand) sizing die. With the decapping and expander pin removed and the top mounted pin ‘holder’ removed, I didn’t have any difficulty with the 56 mm case in a 51 mm cartridge die, the reader may (depending on brand and style of dies used), and is encouraged to watch for it.

This step accomplishes two things; one, the neck size is reduced somewhat, making it easier to reduce the neck size smaller. (Obviously, it’s going to be 6.5 mm when finished; doing this in steps is easier and less brass is lost in the process.) Second, this sizing moves the shoulder back to where it almost should be. Almost.

Step Two:  Size case in 7x57 Mauser sizing die. Step Two: Size case in 7×57 Mauser sizing die.

2. Next, I sized the neck down again in a 7x57mm sizing die. Again with the decapper/neck expander removed. One notes the 57mm case die leaves the necked down portion of the case a bit longer than the finished product. However, with the already sized upper portion the case enters the next ‘size down’ procedure easier.

Step Three and Four:  Case sized in 6.5x55mm die and trimmed.

Step Three, Four and Five: Case sized in 6.5x55mm die and trimmed.

3. Neck down the neck in a 6.5×55 Swede sizing die. After this, most of the neck is roughly the correct diameter.

4. At this point, I shortened the cases to 52 mm, the correct length. (Check this length; mine came out a little shorter than some original collector rounds I have.) I did mine on a Forster case trimmer, as that’s what I have. There are other options and the reader is encouraged to investigate the matter. (Frankly, using a hand cranked trimmer to remove several millimeters of case neck is a pain in the neck.) But trim it anyway. AFTER I did the hand trimming, I ordered the Forster power adapter which allows an electric screw driver to do the cranking.

I later bought a rather inexpensive electric screw driver at the local “Harbor Freight” outlet. It seems to do the turning without the wear and tear on my fingers. In retrospect, I wish I had had it before.

5. Now, the only sizing left is the shoulder, which is still a bit long. I found using the 6.5x54MS dies made the cartridge ‘look’ right, but didn’t sufficiently set the shoulder back to chamber freely. After I purchased the MS dies, I heard the 6.5×53 Mannlicher-Carcano dies are a better fit. I later bought the Carcano dies (from Lee) and the cases ultimately chamber without difficulty.

So I resorted to brute force. (Don’t do this yet). I beat the bolt closed with rubber mallet (still with an unprimed, empty case). This does not seem to affect the bolt and does partially form the shoulder of the case to fit into the chamber. After one forcing, the case will chamber and the bolt lock with some minor pressure. This actually seems to be good, as when the case is fired, the base of the case is firmly seated on the bolt face and no stretching can occur.

Note: For some reason, the 6.5×54 MS dies did NOT set the shoulder back appropriately. Others have used them with reported success. Hopefully, your attempt will be easier. The rough-formed cases will not enter the rifle chamber easily. I obtained a set of 6.5×52 Carcano dies; the shoulder length from the base and length of case are both less. Doing the final sizing the the Carcano die allowed cases to chamber. I did not have to beat the bolt closed any longer.

As draconian as it may sound, I don’t think beating the bolt closed as I outlined did any harm to the rifle. All in all, I find using the Carcano dies a superior method. I strongly recommend NOT beating a loaded case into place.

Please note: The Carcano dies set the case mouth to .268” and the .264” bullets will not stay in the neck. So after setting the shoulder back with the Carcano dies, size the neck (at least) in the Mannlicher-Schonauer dies to properly hold the bullets. 6.5 x 55mm Swede dies have the correct sized expander (.264” bullets), but are too long to fully size the neck to the shoulder.

In retrospect, I probably should have annealed the cases at this point. I didn’t and everything seems to have worked out, but annealing sooner will not harm anything. Information below.

5. Prior to neck turning, I decided to fire-form the brass. Inspecting the thus formed cases, I decided to attempt a ‘live’ load to fire-form. I have a small pile of 140 grain 6.5 bullets from previous work with a 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser. They are the correct bore diameter.

Large Rifle primers, a starting load of IMR 3031 and one of the aforementioned 140 grain bullets seated long seems to be about right. I did measure the loaded round and the outside diameter of the neck with bullet and it miked out just under the schematic dimension. It is rather disappointing in velocity at 2056 fps, but this was a starting load and merely for the purpose of forming the cases.

Outside diameter of neck is just below the one online dimensional drawing I found of the cartridge; therefore, the neck(s) should open enough in firing to release the bullet and not cause a pressure excursion.

Note: The cases you use may react somewhat differently and the dies you use may work a bit different. Do check the outside neck diameter with bullet in place to check if bullets will release. I did not include any dimensions as YOU need to find the information yourself and measure the outside diameter of the loaded round to assure yourself of the safety of the configuration.

Be sure and measure the neck and be sure there is enough space for the neck to open and completely release the bullet. If the bullet and case neck wedge together, pressures get truly unmanageable.

6.5x53Rmm finished and loaded round beside original FN loaded round.

6.5x53Rmm finished and loaded round beside original FN loaded round.

The observer notes the ‘formed’ case (on the right) is a bit shorter than the original on the left. I possibly shortened them a bit too much. However, as the case is rimmed and headspaces on the rim, I don’t think it’s a tragic error. Were I fighting a war, or shooting constantly with the rifle (I am doing neither) I would be concerned about the burning powder gases cutting into the exposed end of the chamber under the missing case neck. I do not think for my purposes this makes a grosse affaire. If I make another set of cases, I will correct this, of course.

I also just ordered pilots (.264”) to ream necks both inside and outside. I have a feeling I will need them at some point.

The fire-forming worked swell. I should mention I tried a lighter charge of fast burning powder and it almost worked.

With all this cold working of the cases, I then annealed the cases to soften and return the malleability to the case necks and shoulders. Good information on line if you haven’t done this before. Not really a difficult operation, but one needs a proper place to do it.

According to Cartridges of the World the military loading of the 6.5 Dutch round features a 156-159 grain (10 grams in metric) round nosed bullet at 2433 feet per second. Wiki agrees with this, but that may mean it was copied. CotW also has a couple suggested loads.

My goal is to duplicate the original loading of cartridges for ‘obsolete’ military rifles. In my thinking the sights are set up for the ‘issue’ load. Also, one can reasonably try out the rifle as it was intended and intelligently form an opinion of the system.

Should one desire ‘lighter’ loads for plinking or fun – including those acquaintances who have never fired a rifle of such age – the loads shown in CotW can be reduced somewhat, or lighter bullets used, or ultimately use light loads for the 6.5×54 Mannlicher-Schonauer.

Cartridges of the World suggest either IMR 3031 or IMR 4350 to duplicate the original loading. See our next exciting episode – Bang! Please note, it is cold and snowy in the Central Plateau. I estimate the next proper shooting date to be at soonest mid April.

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15 Comments

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15 responses to “Forming Cases for the 6.5x53mmR Dutch (or Romanian) Mannlicher cartridge, used in the M1895 Dutch rifle

  1. Pingback: Forming Cases for the 6.5x53mmR Dutch (or Romanian) Mannlicher cartridge, used in the M1895 Dutch rifle – Bob's Opinion

  2. cj_mcnix

    Great write up! I own a full length M1895 rifle myself. I took the plunge on the dies though and bought a set of forming dies(2) and a 2-die sizing set for the 6.5 Dutch. Total cost on that was about $200.00 from CH4D dies. Well worth it! Because of the “roomier” chamber, I add a .11 gap between the shell holder and the dies when forming to keep them slightly long. I’ve been using 160g Hornady round nose bullets and 38g Accurate 4350 powder. It gives me a consistent chrono around 2270fps. The Hornady has a cannelure, but I ignore it as I want to get the overall length close to original at 3.05 inches. Fun rifle to shoot! It’s a family heirloom and will never be sold, but I am thinking seriously about having a gunsmith mount a scope on it.

    • Please do NOT mount a scope on it or change it AT ALL! Except for ordinary cleaning and gentle rust removal. That rifle design is certainly over 100 years old and was made at some point prior to the Second World War! It is a bit of history and a collector’s item. Adding a scope, refinishing, lightening the stock or anything will destroy a goodly value of the historical and collector’s value.

      Truthfully, there are modern guns that will do better for hunting or even past time shooting. And one doesn’t have to ‘make’ brass to shoot them.

  3. JPIII

    I posted my methodology several years ago, with suitable disclaimers, for 6.5 x 53r cases. I followed the length on some British commercial ammo made years ago that I was given. I purchased the 6.5 x 54 dies, including the 3rd form and trim die. After measuring, and trying, several brands of cases, I found the best to be Winchester for forming presize and softness/hardness. My best cases were formed after initial trim on a lathe before forming to the length of the Brit cases, then forming using lubed cases in the form and trim die(rcbs or redding), then retrimming to the final length. The cases were good looking, and fit without the rubber mallet. Fireforming finishes perfectly, although in my opinion they were good after the second trim.
    My cases were better formed, in my opinion, than the only boxer, factory made ammo I could find. The nonUS factory made cases varied tremendously in length and would not accept bullets until they were run through my factory redding or rcbs dies. Trimming made them usable, but my handmades were better,,and much less expensive.
    I so wish I could just use the Norma x54 cases. I know they wouldn’t eject, but they would extract if the headspace issue did not blow up the old rifle.
    I thought 3031 was too fast, 4064 better. A friend had better success with ball powders in this rifle.
    Interested in hearing your reply, Christian.

  4. JPIII, I used Hornady brass as that’s what I could get in quantity to have 100 cases. They seem to have minor size issues with the chamber and after fire-forming no problem at all. I think it may well be a matter of chamber machining being a bit ‘tolerant’ as well as the difference between ‘this’ lot of brand X cases and ‘that’ lot of brand Y cases.

    I agree to a certain suspicion of 3031 being a bit ‘fast’ and 4064 better. I think the Powley computer I have from many winters ago suggests 4064 as the ideal powder. I think 4350 might be better yet.

    The next week or so I’ll begin loading a bit and testing (velocity and accuracy) again.

    The case head spaces on the rim; the length – as long as it isn’t too short and crowd the case capacity, or too long and wedge the bullet in the neck – isn’t all that important; that is there’s a good deal of tolerance.

    I have the carbine version, but have a lead on a rifle version. Shooting the same loading in both versions should be illuminating.

    • John Piazza

      Wow… you found a full length rifle! It seems like 95% or better of the Dutch rifles were converted or initial builds as carbines. My carbune was a bringback from the war in Europe .Some of the carbines were used by the Japanese after the Indonesian capture. A friend gave me a small collection of cartridges that nobody in Cincinnati could I’d- a 30-06(!), a303 brit, a 7.7 Jap, and … a 6.5 Dutch.These were presented in a Japanese cigarette tin, captured onSaipan.

      Sent from my iPhone

      >

      • Carbines seem to be more prevalent. I have a theory the developers took a short while to find out smokeless powder made a greater difference than just ‘smoke’. As evidence to my thought, the M1903 Springfield was several inches shorter in barrel length than the predecessor .30-40 Krag. The WWII K-98 karabiner was noticeably shorter than the initial gewehr 98 in the same chambering, and the M38 Swedish Mauser was much shorter than the 1896 Mauser in the same caliber. None of those rifles mentioned were ‘carbines’ in the sense ‘we’ normally think.

        In the caliber upgrade, nearly all the Austro-Hungarian rifles (M95) were shortened in barrel length.

        Keep the Japanese cigarette tin, too. Someone will no doubt pay a silly amount of money for it.

      • JOHN PIAZZA

        Hello Mr. Montgomery,

        It has been several months since we spoke. I missed the entire shooting season, more or less, but got a taste of almost missing my wife forever. She had a stroke during hip replacement surgery, but we’ve fought back successfully with lot’s of exercise.
        Maybe I should measure the case capacity of one of my empty Kynoch ICI cases, and compare to my handformed Winchester cases?
        Maybe those Bertram cases are quite good, but you are expected to measure and trim/? What a beautiful little rifle this is I have. My carbine has a very interesting manufacturing defect . The rifling cutter had a chip that left a fifth “groove”.I wonder how it got through quality control at Hembrug. I can’t think of operational use causing such a “fifth groove”, but who knows besides God?
        The Australians made replacement 6.5 barrels prior to the occupation of the East Indies after Holland was invaded in 1940. I have one of these, brand new.
        I have a small quantity of “star” stamped ammo, indicating Soviet manufacture. I think it was made with Romanian rifles in mind. Who knows what this ammo might do?
        New email address…JohnPiazza@ Piazza-law.com
        Like to hear from you…
        John Piazza

      • Mr. Piazza I am glad to hear the end of the saga of your Lady Wife. I will be praying for her in the future.

        Back to the rifle, cartridge and cases. Measuring cases and comparing volumes is not a bad endeavor, but I suspect rather pointless. The reason being, there is no ‘standard’ these days. The loads I develop will be perfectly suited to the cases I have. I presume – presumption being somewhat dangerous – the information will be of ‘assistance’ to other persons as a rough guide, but not as reliable as most reloading manuals. I’m not afraid of blowing someone else’s rifle to bits, but don’t want to stress parts or ruin chambers.

        For your own use, comparing the Kynoch cases with the Winchester cases will give you an idea – you’ll have to calculate or guess – of both starting and maximum loads for each case.

        Bertram cases. My only thought is, at the price asked, one should expect cases to be at the minimal length and otherwise uniform, when delivered. Perhaps I’m too picky. (I just bought some Norma cases for another rifle; nearly two U. S. dollars a piece! They are very finished and don’t even need sizing, let alone trimming or such.)

        The ‘star’ stamped Soviet ammunition sounds intriguing. Based on my knowledge of military thinking, the actual ballistics should be quite the same as prior Austrian or ‘indigenous’ produced ammunition. No point in making ammunition which will be far from useful with the extant sights. On the other hand, making ammunition in ‘lots’ is somewhat variable. Even U. S. manufactured ammunition of current production is different from lot to lot.

        The date may give information regarding relative sophistication of powders and possibly type of primers used. I would expect those cases to be berdan primed as well. Are they brass or mild steel? Check both case and bullet with a small magnet.

        That brings up another consideration: I’ve NEVER seen a Romanian rifle or carbine of this type or caliber. I wonder if I can obtain one without selling the house or pawning my firstborn?

        I was unaware of the Australian replacement barrels. Which is not surprising, I suppose. The barrel you have may be of some value if you desire to rebuild a rifle or carbine at some point.

        You mention an ‘extra groove’ in the barrel of another rifle. My thought is the barrel was okayed for use as the ‘extra groove’ did not cause any problems, the barrel was expected to function as designed AND, there was a war going on! No soldier of the reich would note or show concern about such a defect showing on the projectile killing him. It is curious from a manufacturing standpoint, I agree.

        Just for information, which I expect you to sift carefully, my best results with the carbine is with IMR 4320 powder. Velocities are high (about 100 fps slower than the rifle velocity of the era), consistency is quite good, accuracy is good to excellent, and I can find no evidence of high pressures. However, this IMR 4320 powder is probably better than the powder available roughly a century ago; I believe the powder of that time probably faster and more ‘brisk’ than current types. So while I do not think these loads are harming my rifle, I think they may not match up the sights well in range testing.

    • JPIII

      I used some Bertram 6.5 dutch cases with?414 ? Powder. Shot 1″ triangle at 100 yards. Bertram casesneed to be trimmed to uniform length . Very bad.
      JPIII

      • John Piazza

        Of all the 303brass I measured and formed, Winchester was the closest to original dutch ammomanufactured by Brit ICI in @1948. It also formed the best. The Redding 6.5form die worked beautifully with a trimmed, lubed,Winchester case. JPIII

        Sent from my iPhone

        >

      • Bertram? Cases? I couldn’t find anything.

        I found it. 3.69 British POUNDS per case. In dog years, that’s $4.72 each. Dang. I found them cheaper somewhere else. Only $3.15 each when buying 20 at at a time. Your post seems to discourage the use of them. However, as the case headspaces on the rim (it seems), the over all length is not as important – except for crimping.

        I think I’ll stick with my reformed cases.

        There is a powder called H(odgdon) 414 which is way slower than IMR 3031 and between IMR 4320 and IMR 4350. It seems usable in this cartridge, but I don’t have any. My candidates are (I am repeating some of an earlier reply) IMR 3031, IMR 4064 and IMR 4350 which is my standby bolt action powder.

        A little before I’m ready, I did clock a load with 3031 at 2158 fps and a test load with 4350 at 2103 fps. Cartridges of the World gives 2433 fps as the ‘military loading’ (156-159 grain ball bullet), but does not stipulate this from rifle or carbine length barrel. I presume rifle.

        Accuracy: Considering this arm – rifle or carbine – is an iron sighted ‘issue’ device with an ‘issue’ trigger and ‘issue’ ammo, it is intended to hit a target roughly 12-13 inches wide and about 15-18 inches tall; the side of an enemy soldier out to ranges limited only by the trajectory of the shot. I’d say your grouping of 1 inch at 100 yards is pretty good. (I’m presuming this was from a rest?) My range is limited to 290 yards and I’m hoping to get all my test shots on a IPSC silhouette target (anywhere!) at that range from a rest. Not sure about offhand; I’m not as steady as the old days.

  5. Mr. Piazza, I have no doubt of your statement about ‘closeness’. However, I will point out ‘lots’ of most anything vary within manufacturing tolerances.

    Your post also assumes the 1948 lot of ammunition made by Brit ICI was exactly correct. (It was no doubt close enough.)

    My technique could be described as a bit crude. I do not in fact have actual 6.5x53mmR loading dies made by anyone. I do not have the forming dies sold by – someone. I do have several intermediate sized dies as mentioned and some knowledge of the subject. I now have usable cases for loading and evaluating the rifle.

    I used Hornady cases initially as I said because I had them in sufficient quantity to make up one hundred or so of the 6.5x53mmR cases. I am not offhand certain of the closeness between the cases I used and the chamber of my particular rifle – which may vary from the exact dimensions prescribed by some small tolerance – but the cases do fit and fire in my rifle (and I suspect most other such rifles) safely and ‘normally’ (whatever that means). I am sure your cases do as well.

    I found and used about ten Remington cases and converted them as well. That may be an interesting comparison.

    I note after firing, the cases do NOT seem to bulge forward of the internal web structure. Meaning they fit the chamber pretty closely but still chamber and extract.

    One of the other random thoughts based on your correspondence and my own cogitation is the internal volume of the ‘formed’ cases versus whatever cases were used by Cartridges of the World (or anyone else) in developing loads. It could easily present as needing a grain or two either more or less of a specific powder for case “A” to equal the velocity of case “B”. Probably not enough to cause serious disturbance, but a technical question.

    CJ brings up an interesting point. What is the velocity difference between the rifle and carbine length versions? I don’t want to beat my poor carbine to death attempting to get rifle velocities out of it. I currently own a carbine and have a good chance to buy a rifle length version.

    Hopefully the ammunition will work in that example as well.

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